{"version":1,"scope":"full","truncated":false,"id":"editorial-codex-tarot-strength-justice-numbering","url":"https://wenbu.app/en/learn/tarot-strength-justice-numbering/","locale":"en","revision":"c16622049e5a8e4bae0ef80a22262979f52dec1bac55b176f668ccdf5ef91694","updated":"2026-11-13T01:18:16.788Z","content":"# Why Strength and Justice swap VIII and XI in tarot decks\n\nCompare Waite's book with a Conver-pattern Marseille deck. Identify Strength and Justice in an old note and preserve each deck's printed number.\n\nUpdated: 2026-11-13 · Wenbu AI-assisted editorial\n\nIn Waite’s Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Strength is VIII and Justice is XI. The Conver-pattern Marseille deck in the Bibliothèque nationale de France prints Justice as VIII and Strength as XI. Waite notes the interchange in his Strength entry without giving a specific reason there. When checking an old reading, preserve the number on the card and identify the card by its title, image or edition guide.\n\n[A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) · [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) · [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n- Record the printed number and card name together with the deck edition.\n\n- The two documented references assign VIII and XI differently.\n\n- Keep the identity open when a number survives without any deck evidence.\n\n## Recover a card name from the record\n\n1. **Copy what survives** — Write VIII or XI along with any visible title, objects and spread position.\n\n2. **Check the same edition** — Compare a full card, book or booklet that belongs to the deck in the record.\n\n3. **Record the evidence** — Add the confirmed title and its source, or leave the identity unconfirmed.\n\nKeep the number, name and edition separate as you follow the available evidence.\n\n[A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) · [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) · [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n## Why one card can carry two different numbers\n\nIn Part II of Waite’s book, the heading for Strength, also called Fortitude, is VIII. Justice is XI. In the Strength entry he acknowledges that he interchanged the cards, adding that Justice is usually numbered eight. He gives no specific reason in that entry. The list in Part III follows the same order. A different VIII in an older deck is a reason to check the edition.\n\nFor a second reference, take the Bibliothèque nationale de France’s Conver-pattern Marseille deck, digitized as btv1b10520316w. Scan 103 reads VIII and La Justice. Scan 109 reads XI and La Force. Those scan numbers are locators in the digital archive. The table compares two named references. Look at the actual card or its companion booklet when you work with another edition.\n\n[A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) · [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) · [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n## Use the picture to recover a cropped title\n\nIn the Conver prints, Justice sits with a raised sword and a pair of scales. The figure on La Force has both hands near a lion’s mouth. If a photo cuts off the title, begin by writing down the objects you can see. Look for a complete image from the same deck. Illustrators can redraw the pose, change the setting or omit an object.\n\nA sword on its own is weak evidence. The photo might omit the scales, or it might show a card from the suit of Swords. With only a cropped detail, write “possible Justice, full card needed.” If you later find the matching guide or the original photo, add the basis for the identification. The record will show which details came from the picture and which you supplied later.\n\n[A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) · [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) · [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n## Give the number and the spread position separate fields\n\nAn old notebook might say “position two, VIII, November 4.” Position two is the place in the spread. VIII is the card’s printed number. November 4 is the date of the record. If the question is which card VIII represents, its position in the spread gives you no help. Record the spread position, the card name, the printed number and the deck edition as separate details.\n\nIf you know you used two different decks, keep each number as it was printed. You can add a shared label such as Strength or Justice to make both records searchable. Before comparing interpretations, also check whether the cards answered the same position and whether you applied the same orientation rule. A search by number alone would combine different cards in this case.\n\n[A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) · [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) · [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n## What to look for when all you have is VIII\n\nReturn to photos, the box or the booklet from the day of the draw. One photo might show only a card back. Another might show a title on the box that ties the reading to an edition. A guide is useful when you can connect it to the deck you actually used. Keep the source with the entry so you can repeat the check later.\n\nWhen you cannot find those details, write “VIII, deck unknown, card name unconfirmed.” Add the evidence and the date if you can resolve it later. On Wenbu, start with the name and orientation of the card you actually drew. You can practice the same record keeping with its original illustrations, then use the historical scans when you want to identify a card from the archived deck.\n\n[A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) · [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) · [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n## What VIII and XI refer to in two references\n\n| Record | Waite’s book | Conver-pattern Marseille print | What to write |\n| --- | --- | --- | --- |\n| VIII | Strength, also called Fortitude | Justice, La Justice | Name the edition and use its actual title |\n| XI | Justice | Strength, La Force | Keep the number printed on the card |\n| Only an upright sword is visible | Look for the rest of the card | Look for the scales and title | Record the visible clue and leave the identity open |\n| Only VIII, deck unknown | Strength is possible | Justice is possible | VIII, name unconfirmed |\n\n[A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) · [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) · [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n## Three fictional notes that both say VIII\n\nThese are three practice entries. The first two use Waite’s book and the BnF’s Conver-pattern deck, with the card in the Tension position. The third has no recorded edition.\n\n1. The first note reads “VIII, Fortitude.” Match it to item eight in Waite’s Part III and record Strength. Preserve VIII.\n\n2. The second photo also shows VIII. A sword and scales are visible. Check the complete scan 103 from the same Conver-pattern deck. It reads La Justice, so record Justice with VIII.\n\n3. A third note says only VIII. Keep that value and leave the card name unconfirmed because the deck is unknown.\n\n4. Write the edition next to each verified entry. Although both cards occupied the same spread position and share a number, the evidence identifies two different cards.\n\nThe first two entries now keep both the original number and a traceable card name. The third remains open.\n\n[A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) · [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) · [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n## FAQ\n\n### Does Waite say exactly why he changed the order?\n\nIn the Strength entry he says that he interchanged it with Justice, which he says is usually numbered eight. The entry establishes the change and gives no specific rationale for it.\n\n[A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) · [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) · [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n### Does reversing a card change VIII into XI?\n\nA reversal records how the card was drawn. Keep the card’s printed number. If you look at an upright reference image, keep the original draw orientation in your notes.\n\n[A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) · [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) · [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n### Is writing just the card name enough?\n\nThe name may be enough to find a note from one familiar deck. For comparisons, keep the edition, the printed number and the original title if you have them.\n\n[A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) · [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) · [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n## Glossary\n\n- **Printed number**: The number printed on a card in its specific deck, such as VIII or XI. [A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) · [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) · [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n- **Deck edition**: The particular version that supplies the card artwork, titles and order. A box, guide or collection identifier can establish it. [A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) · [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) · [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n- **Spread position**: The role the card occupies in the reading, such as Situation, Tension or Next Step. [A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) · [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) · [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n## Evidence notes\n\n- Waite's Part III lists Strength under the name Fortitude at number eight. — “8. Fortitude” (fact); [A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3)\n\n- The same list places Justice at number eleven. — “11. Justice” (fact); [A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3)\n\n- Wenbu uses its own illustrations. Label its card images separately from historical prints. — “78 张牌面为原创 AI 插画” (fact); [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/)\n\n## Sources\n\n- [A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3) — Waite primary text on card entries and reversals; historical symbolic interpretations, not evidence of predictive accuracy; fetched 2026-11-13T01:08:48.140Z; excerpt\n\n- [Wenbu · tarot beginner guide](https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md) — Existing editorial and worked reading; fetched 2026-11-13T01:08:48.091Z; excerpt\n\n- [Wenbu · calculation conventions](https://wenbu.app/methodology/) — First-party implementation; not evidence of predictive accuracy; fetched 2026-11-13T01:08:48.084Z; complete response\n\n[Draw one card in Wenbu and make a record](https://wenbu.app/en/tarot/)","edition":{"title":"Why Strength and Justice swap VIII and XI in tarot decks","description":"Compare Waite's book with a Conver-pattern Marseille deck. Identify Strength and Justice in an old note and preserve each deck's printed number.","answer":"In Waite’s Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Strength is VIII and Justice is XI. The Conver-pattern Marseille deck in the Bibliothèque nationale de France prints Justice as VIII and Strength as XI. Waite notes the interchange in his Strength entry without giving a specific reason there. When checking an old reading, preserve the number on the card and identify the card by its title, image or edition guide.","answerSourceIds":["waite","tarot","methods"],"evidence":[{"claim":"Waite's Part III lists Strength under the name Fortitude at number eight.","sourceId":"waite","quote":"8. Fortitude","kind":"fact"},{"claim":"The same list places Justice at number eleven.","sourceId":"waite","quote":"11. Justice","kind":"fact"},{"claim":"Wenbu uses its own illustrations. Label its card images separately from historical prints.","sourceId":"methods","quote":"78 张牌面为原创 AI 插画","kind":"fact"}],"takeaways":["Record the printed number and card name together with the deck edition.","The two documented references assign VIII and XI differently.","Keep the identity open when a number survives without any deck evidence."],"sections":[{"heading":"Why one card can carry two different numbers","paragraphs":["In Part II of Waite’s book, the heading for Strength, also called Fortitude, is VIII. Justice is XI. In the Strength entry he acknowledges that he interchanged the cards, adding that Justice is usually numbered eight. He gives no specific reason in that entry. The list in Part III follows the same order. A different VIII in an older deck is a reason to check the edition.","For a second reference, take the Bibliothèque nationale de France’s Conver-pattern Marseille deck, digitized as btv1b10520316w. Scan 103 reads VIII and La Justice. Scan 109 reads XI and La Force. Those scan numbers are locators in the digital archive. The table compares two named references. Look at the actual card or its companion booklet when you work with another edition."],"sourceIds":["waite","tarot","methods"]},{"heading":"Use the picture to recover a cropped title","paragraphs":["In the Conver prints, Justice sits with a raised sword and a pair of scales. The figure on La Force has both hands near a lion’s mouth. If a photo cuts off the title, begin by writing down the objects you can see. Look for a complete image from the same deck. Illustrators can redraw the pose, change the setting or omit an object.","A sword on its own is weak evidence. The photo might omit the scales, or it might show a card from the suit of Swords. With only a cropped detail, write “possible Justice, full card needed.” If you later find the matching guide or the original photo, add the basis for the identification. The record will show which details came from the picture and which you supplied later."],"sourceIds":["waite","tarot","methods"]},{"heading":"Give the number and the spread position separate fields","paragraphs":["An old notebook might say “position two, VIII, November 4.” Position two is the place in the spread. VIII is the card’s printed number. November 4 is the date of the record. If the question is which card VIII represents, its position in the spread gives you no help. Record the spread position, the card name, the printed number and the deck edition as separate details.","If you know you used two different decks, keep each number as it was printed. You can add a shared label such as Strength or Justice to make both records searchable. Before comparing interpretations, also check whether the cards answered the same position and whether you applied the same orientation rule. A search by number alone would combine different cards in this case."],"sourceIds":["waite","tarot","methods"]},{"heading":"What to look for when all you have is VIII","paragraphs":["Return to photos, the box or the booklet from the day of the draw. One photo might show only a card back. Another might show a title on the box that ties the reading to an edition. A guide is useful when you can connect it to the deck you actually used. Keep the source with the entry so you can repeat the check later.","When you cannot find those details, write “VIII, deck unknown, card name unconfirmed.” Add the evidence and the date if you can resolve it later. On Wenbu, start with the name and orientation of the card you actually drew. You can practice the same record keeping with its original illustrations, then use the historical scans when you want to identify a card from the archived deck."],"sourceIds":["waite","tarot","methods"]}],"figure":{"title":"Recover a card name from the record","caption":"Keep the number, name and edition separate as you follow the available evidence.","sourceIds":["waite","tarot","methods"],"steps":[{"label":"Copy what survives","detail":"Write VIII or XI along with any visible title, objects and spread position."},{"label":"Check the same edition","detail":"Compare a full card, book or booklet that belongs to the deck in the record."},{"label":"Record the evidence","detail":"Add the confirmed title and its source, or leave the identity unconfirmed."}]},"table":{"title":"What VIII and XI refer to in two references","columns":["Record","Waite’s book","Conver-pattern Marseille print","What to write"],"rows":[["VIII","Strength, also called Fortitude","Justice, La Justice","Name the edition and use its actual title"],["XI","Justice","Strength, La Force","Keep the number printed on the card"],["Only an upright sword is visible","Look for the rest of the card","Look for the scales and title","Record the visible clue and leave the identity open"],["Only VIII, deck unknown","Strength is possible","Justice is possible","VIII, name unconfirmed"]],"sourceIds":["waite","tarot","methods"]},"example":{"title":"Three fictional notes that both say VIII","intro":"These are three practice entries. The first two use Waite’s book and the BnF’s Conver-pattern deck, with the card in the Tension position. The third has no recorded edition.","steps":["The first note reads “VIII, Fortitude.” Match it to item eight in Waite’s Part III and record Strength. Preserve VIII.","The second photo also shows VIII. A sword and scales are visible. Check the complete scan 103 from the same Conver-pattern deck. It reads La Justice, so record Justice with VIII.","A third note says only VIII. Keep that value and leave the card name unconfirmed because the deck is unknown.","Write the edition next to each verified entry. Although both cards occupied the same spread position and share a number, the evidence identifies two different cards."],"conclusion":"The first two entries now keep both the original number and a traceable card name. The third remains open.","sourceIds":["waite","tarot","methods"]},"faq":[{"question":"Does Waite say exactly why he changed the order?","answer":"In the Strength entry he says that he interchanged it with Justice, which he says is usually numbered eight. The entry establishes the change and gives no specific rationale for it.","sourceIds":["waite","tarot","methods"]},{"question":"Does reversing a card change VIII into XI?","answer":"A reversal records how the card was drawn. Keep the card’s printed number. If you look at an upright reference image, keep the original draw orientation in your notes.","sourceIds":["waite","tarot","methods"]},{"question":"Is writing just the card name enough?","answer":"The name may be enough to find a note from one familiar deck. For comparisons, keep the edition, the printed number and the original title if you have them.","sourceIds":["waite","tarot","methods"]}],"glossary":[{"term":"Printed number","definition":"The number printed on a card in its specific deck, such as VIII or XI.","sourceIds":["waite","tarot","methods"]},{"term":"Deck edition","definition":"The particular version that supplies the card artwork, titles and order. A box, guide or collection identifier can establish it.","sourceIds":["waite","tarot","methods"]},{"term":"Spread position","definition":"The role the card occupies in the reading, such as Situation, Tension or Next Step.","sourceIds":["waite","tarot","methods"]}],"cta":{"label":"Draw one card in Wenbu and make a record","reason":"Write the title, orientation and deck in your notes. Use whichever card you draw for practice."}},"editionScope":"full","sources":[{"id":"waite","title":"A. E. Waite · The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Part III","url":"https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pictorial_Key_to_the_Tarot/Part_3","role":"Waite primary text on card entries and reversals; historical symbolic interpretations, not evidence of predictive accuracy","fetchedAt":"2026-11-13T01:08:48.140Z","hash":"6b28d6aef23d5a1cc47a0286b6d959e518be4b1d69b712547b11dd1ffec88beb","truncated":true},{"id":"tarot","title":"Wenbu · tarot beginner guide","url":"https://wenbu.app/knowledge/en/tarot-beginner.md","role":"Existing editorial and worked reading","fetchedAt":"2026-11-13T01:08:48.091Z","hash":"b4354be906ffdc106924853aeafb7243c1cf5665765f1f2ebbb99e28486f2527","truncated":true},{"id":"methods","title":"Wenbu · calculation conventions","url":"https://wenbu.app/methodology/","role":"First-party implementation; not evidence of predictive accuracy","fetchedAt":"2026-11-13T01:08:48.084Z","hash":"21a7f433eb1571ce23e4c4e96f09d0da54c2f9030469f4b8ecfc294a13344de5","truncated":false}],"previousAdditions":[]}